876 | How to Build an Adventure Vehicle with Matt Dunkerly of AVC Rig

WFS 876 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Today’s guest helps people build out their ultimate adventure vehicle. Not for show, not for Instagram, for real miles, real weather and long days that start out on the river and end in the dark. He grew up road tripping to Wyoming to fish freestone rivers, learned to sleep wherever the water stopped him, and figured out early that access matters more than comfort. Today, Matt Dunkerley runs AVC rig building, custom camper van build outs and DIY systems that help anglers, writers and families get farther without overbuilding or overthinking it. This is the podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Matt Dunkerley is here today, and he is going to break down a number of things, including why most van build mistakes happen before the first tool even comes out. He’s going to talk about a few systems that actually mattered, and what you can actually skip when you’re getting into a custom build out or something a more detailed. And we’re also going to find out how fly fishing shaped Matt’s approach to access simplicity and design, and the real difference between vans, trucks, and trailers for anglers. We’re going to get into a bunch of trips. If you’re excited about this one, I know I am. Here he is. You can find Matt Dunkerly at AVCrig.com How’s it going Matt? 00:01:19 Matt: It’s doing pretty good Dave. Good morning. Yeah great to great to be on with you. 00:01:23 Dave: Yeah yeah this is this is going to be a fun one. I think that uh, you have a brand that a lot of people, either they have one they’re thinking about. I know I’ve been thinking about this for a while. The van. I know we were on a trip. I think back to this trip we did in Virginia. We crossed the country, I flew across, I met with two, uh, of our listeners, Brandon and Matt, and both of them had these dialed in. One was, I think one was a sprinter van and one was a was the transit. And they were both just like. And I my first chance to really look and see one of these build outs. So basically, I mean, that’s what you do. You build out these vans. We’re going to talk about that today. But you’re also into fly fishing. And we got some fly fishing questions for you as well. But but first off how are things going. You you staying busy. We’re just kind of into the new year, right? 00:02:08 Matt: Yeah. Into the new year. We are as busy as ever. It used to be that we would have kind of a slow season this time of year, but I’d say the last few years we’ve just been cranking, you know, Covid obviously was like a big one for all outdoor things in general. And so we got really busy then and we’ve honestly never slowed down since. So yeah, it’s good to be busy. And you know, it’s a little bit chilly here in Colorado. But we got a nice big warm shop to work in. So we we stay busy year round. 00:02:32 Dave: Nice nice. Well maybe just start off with and we’re going to get into a little on your background on fishing. But first just talk about you know AVC rig for people that don’t know what that is. Maybe explain a little bit about what you do. 00:02:45 Matt: Yeah. So AVC rig stands for Adventure Vehicle Concepts. And we just wanted a nice short URL so people could find us on the web. We build custom camper vans. That’s our main bread and butter. So we we take the Ford Transit platform. We bring them in-house as an empty cargo van, and then we just dial them in with everything custom for whatever the customer needs. We’ll usually sit down with somebody, do a needs analysis, talk about the activities they do, what kind of trips they like to take, and then we kind of steer them through the the design process and build a van based on their needs. That’s like one half of our business. The other half is all this DIY product and do it yourself kind of stuff, so that a home builder can build these at home. Because let’s face it, camper vans these days are ridiculously expensive. You know, you’re going to be one hundred and twenty thousand dollars into a van, uh, in all reality. And so that is out of the budget for a lot of people, frankly. And if I wasn’t a van builder, I couldn’t afford one myself. So so we have this whole DIY contingent where we sell you all the pieces and parts in all sorts of different levels of complications, so we can buy a paper pattern that’s super cheap, ship it to you, and you cut out all your own material, or we have completely finished kits that just, you know, screw and bolt right into your van and they’re ready to go. And that would meet people at their skill level and at their price point. 00:03:55 Dave: Oh, wow. So yeah. So you you guys kind of cover it sounds like all ends of it from the person that, uh, you’re kind of customizing it. Not only do you guys do the full build out, but you can actually help somebody. And is this the people that would be buying the DIY kits? Is that for the Ford Transit, or is that for any other type of van? 00:04:12 Matt: Right now it’s just for the Ford Transit. We kind of specialize in Ford Transit, but a little sneak peek into our future. We actually have a sprinter coming in in the next couple of weeks. And so we’re going to be expanding into sprinter. 00:04:22 Dave: Oh there you go. Which is a pretty decent size I mean I always wondered about that. You know I know I’ve been looking for years I haven’t you know, we haven’t got the van yet, but I’ve been you know, you see all the sprinter vans, you know, they’re amazing. And you see the Ford, I mean, they’re all amazing, but it’s kind of like, okay, which one do you go for? I’m guessing the the sprinter. The Mercedes sprinter is a little more expensive to get into. Is that one of the big differences? 00:04:43 Matt: Yeah, that’s one of the big ones I mean there’s a couple size differences. But in all in all intents and purposes I’d say the transit and the sprinter are pretty comparable, but you’re probably going to be ten K into a sprinter. You know more. And then the cost of ownership, you know, getting an oil change and all that kind of stuff with sprinter is going to be a little bit more expensive. It is by far a more popular platform, and I’d say ninety percent of the market is probably sprinter camper vans out there. And so we are kind of the little side piece of the van industry being a Ford Transit outfitter. But I really prefer the Ford Transit. There. There’s a couple nice things about them. You can get them serviced just about anywhere in the country, because any Ford mechanic can service a transit, which is really nice here in North America. And they have a really awesome, uh, EcoBoost engine, which is a turbocharged V6. And so they just call, you know, we can I can go ninety miles an hour uphill, as long as there’s not a cop around and we can get to where we need to go and pass people on the highway and drive pretty comfortably in this vehicle. 00:05:38 Dave: Right, right. Gotcha. Okay, well, we’re going to dig more into that as we go and talk about, you know, if somebody is interested, what they need to know, like I said, getting started. But let’s take it back to fly fishing real quick. I know you’ve got some experience here. First off, your name. Right? Or not your name, but the logo that came from some sort of fly fishing story. 00:05:54 Matt: Yeah. So when I, when I first started ABC rig, my buddy and I and my buddy, I met through fly fishing, and he was actually a guide for a long time and we were roommates. I built his first van, but we we designed the logo after our favorite fly fishing spot. And so we both lived here on the Front Range. We were living in Boulder, Colorado at the time and we would drive up to Buena Vista. He was a sales rep, so he didn’t work like a nine to five. So we would just say, hey, okay, like Friday afternoon we’re going to meet at Leon Tree and Leon Tree. Is this like a tree that hangs over the river and there’s a nice deep undercut bank. It’s on the Arkansas River. And so, you know, he would say, hey, let’s just meet at Leon Tree at four o’clock and I’d know exactly where we’re going to be. And so that just seemed like a really great icon for our business. And so we call it the Leon Tree logo. And that’s just our awesome fly fishing spot. 00:06:40 Dave: There you go. There you go. And we’ll obviously have a link in the show notes to the logo and some of this too. So so that’s kind of how you got all that going. Well you mentioned it. You know, again we’re talking about this and we’ll jump back and forth a little bit today. But when you think about the person coming, you know somebody listening now they have a van. What are the things that they should be thinking about either you know, maybe they have one or maybe they’re thinking about getting one. What’s because I’m sure there’s lots of different levels of these build outs, right? What are you telling somebody when they’re first getting going? 00:07:07 Matt: There’s really three questions. One is what kind of adventures you go on. You know, so I’m going to go on week long trips. I’m going to go on a month long trip. I’m going to go on Weekend Warrior kind of stuff, or I’m going to just straight up live in the van. Then next is going to be how many people do you need to bring with you? Personally, I’m a family of four, so my needs are going to be different than a single guy or maybe a retired couple whose kids are growing up. The last is going to be what kind of toys do you want to bring along with you? And so those three decisions are really going to tell you what you need in the van, how much room you need for toys and how much room you need for people and sleeping platforms, things like that. 00:07:37 Dave: Right, right. Yeah. Those are key. So so what you’re doing and let’s just take an example. I think there’s lots of diversity, but I know I’ve talked to a number of listeners who are right now thinking about, you know, well, there’s both ends, there’s people getting ready to retire, and then people that are new are getting into it. What’s your just roughly do you have a mix of age ranges of people that are, you know, looking at your stuff? 00:07:59 Matt: We do get people from all over. I built vans for people as young as like thirty, maybe late twenties, early thirties. But I’d say these days we get more and more like retired couples or nearly retired couples whose kids are, you know, like they’re in high school, maybe going to college next year, in the next couple of years. And so, you know, they’re looking at things and saying, okay, you know, we could take a little bit more time and travel and be a little bit more comfortable than we used to be. 00:08:23 Dave: That’s right. Yeah. That’s kind of who I was thinking about here, because I know I’ve heard about some of those some of those people that are getting ready to retire. It’s coming up and they’re planning on traveling around the country and fishing. And I think that this is a great example, because I think part of the challenge is, is with the campers, the big campers, and we have a poll behind us that it’s so huge and pulling it and stuff. It just takes you, you know? That’s why I think these vans are amazing because you can literally build them out, like as far as you want. You could have it a full camper and then but you can park in a regular parking spot, right? Maybe talk about that a little bit. Is that one of the cool things about, you know, having one of these vans? 00:08:56 Matt: The biggest thing for having a van for me is lowering the barrier to entry. You know, I’ll have a van that is outfitted all summer that’s just ready to go if I want to go fishing or I want to go camping, I want to go mountain biking, whatever it’s going to be, I can pretty much just jump in the van and drive away. You know, I always have a couple of meals in here that are ready to go. I got a water system, I got cooking, I got, you know, everything is at my fingertips and there’s no setup. And that’s one of the huge things is I can drive for eight hours across the country, I can pull off on a truck stop or, you know, just on some random exit. I can camp for the night. I can wake up in the next morning and continue on with with no, like, thought or setup or anything like that. 00:09:32 Dave: Yes. That’s what. Yeah. You just make it easy to get going. You got all your stuff. And then you also mentioned number of people affects how you’re building these out. So let’s just in this situation, let’s assume it’s for a couple of people just in this example and then toys. And now when you asked with toys what are we talking about here. What sort of toys would we be asking or questions for? 00:09:50 Matt: You know, we do a lot of stand up paddle boarding, a lot of kayaking, mountain biking, fly fishing, skiing, running, hiking, running and hiking is pretty easy because the gear is small. But here in Colorado, lots of mountain biking. So everybody wants to be able to store, you know, they’re arguably very expensive mountain bikes inside. 00:10:08 Dave: Oh, inside. 00:10:09 Matt: Yeah. Oh yeah. So we have you know, my van has a big garage in the back. It’s almost four feet wide. It’s about six feet long. And, uh, you know, it expands up to fifty five inches underneath the bed because we do an electric bed lift so the bed can move up and down. I’ve put for mountain bikes and a cooler in the back of my van on a slide out tray with a couple of pairs of skis and just everything in here. And I can go with, you know, with all my buddies, I can get four guys in here, four bikes and a cooler, you know, and our fridge inside, everything, you know, just. And it fits pretty comfortably. 00:10:39 Dave: Amazing. And then when you’re ready to sleep, do you pull the bikes out and then drop the bed down to sleep in there? 00:10:45 Matt: It’s six foot eight inside, so there’s enough room even with a fully outfitted mountain bike. You can climb up on top and get in the bed. Uh, you know, we’ll have about twenty eight, thirty inches of bed height in the, in the upstairs. So you can’t can’t necessarily sit up in bed, but you can be comfortable and not feel like you’re in some kind of submarine bunk. 00:11:00 Dave: Right? Right, right. Exactly. Which I’ve done before too. I think you know, anybody that’s done some of this, you know, it’s like in the back of the pickup in a canopy. It’s like, I definitely did that for years, but it’s not the most comfortable. So this is a good start. So maybe, you know we’re on this track talking about you know somebody’s getting ready to to build this out. So you’ve asked a few questions. You know what sort of level. Let’s just say they’re more of the, you know, maybe not one hundred percent fully, you know, living out of it. But they love going for long trips like maybe three weeks a month, you know, is no problem. So that’s kind of where we’re at. It’s going to be a couple people. They’re going to have a couple of bikes, you know. So that’s kind of the setup. What sort of options do you have? Is this something where you guys are doing a mix of fully camper everything versus like, what’s the difference between going the lite version versus the big version? Or how would you describe that? 00:11:48 Matt: The Lite version would be something like, you know, it’s maybe it’s going to be somebody’s daily driver and it’s going to be their weekend warrior rig. And so they want to keep it pretty light because they don’t want to drag everything around every day back and forth to work. And so we might do something a little bit more portable or, you know, with like a portable kitchenette or portable sink cabinet that would maybe live in the garage most of the time, and then you can bring it out and put it in the van. But maybe, you know, we’d still have a power system in a fridge because those need to be hardwired and safely mounted. And so that way you can have cold drinks and some food in there all the time, year round power systems there. So you can do, you know, just about everything can be done off a power system these days. And then everything else can come in and out of the van as they please. And then if we get into more of like a, you know, a proper what I would call proper camper van, something you could go out for long weekends or multiple weeks at a time. Then we’re going to be getting into a full kitchenette with hot running water. A hot shower off the back of the van. Maybe doing, you know, an inset induction cooktop so you can cook easy, simple meals in the van all the time. You know, hard side overhead cabinets, maybe a microwave. Something that just makes those extended trips a little bit more efficient. You know, I don’t have a microwave in mine personally, just because I’m more of a weekend warrior. But if I was out for three weeks at a time, I’d want to be able to heat up, you know, a meal. Just real easy. 00:12:57 Dave: Right. So how does that. Because that is a whole nother thing, right? The microwave, the air conditioner, and even the power. How does that work with the power? Are you maybe describe that a little bit because, you know, if you set this up, can you power everything you need to on these trips? 00:13:11 Matt: Yeah, you could power just about anything you can think of on these trips. We’ll do rooftop air conditioners, we’ll do microwaves, we’ll do induction. You know, dual burner induction cooktops, electric hot water heaters, furnaces, all that kind of stuff. And we’ll still have room to charge electric bikes in the back and things like that. That’s becoming a little bit more popular these days. And the the system charges off the vehicle as we drive charges off of solar. And then if we have a chance to plug in, we can top off the battery plugged into shore power, right? 00:13:36 Dave: Maybe. Let’s take it back a step, because I’m starting to think like all this stuff. It seems like it’s a lot, right? What’s your background? Maybe describe that a little bit. Let’s take us back into let’s blend this into the fly fishing. But also how AVC rig your background how you got into all this. 00:13:51 Matt: I grew up fly fishing with my family. You know, I grew up in Northern California, and every summer we’d take a trip to Wyoming and my grandparents in Georgia would do the same trip, and we’d all meet in Wyoming and go fly fishing. Uh, and there was a freestone river on western Wyoming just north of Pinedale. And my grandpa had been fishing there since the, like, late sixties, I think he was he met some random guy fly fishing. He said, what the heck is that? And so he got into fly fishing a little early, you know, earlier than a lot of people I feel like. And, uh, then got, you know, got the rest of the family into it. And then I grew up doing the same thing. So, you know, fly fishing from a young age and then, uh, you know, obviously took a break as I got into high school and college, stuff like that. But, uh, moved out to Colorado in twenty ten and found myself near all these rivers and everything, and so I would ride my bike to all the local rivers around Boulder, up in the mountains, and do a little bit of fly fishing, and then eventually had a roommate that moved in with me, and he was a fly fishing guide, and he really stepped up my game. Then I learned to actually fly fish. I learned what, you know, nymphing and some of the basics were and that’s when it really took off for me as more of a, you know, a proper passion. You know, at the time I was camping in my pickup truck, I had, uh, you know, I had the tuna can in the back, just, you know, a little bed over the top and climb in there and sleep wherever I could on the edge of the river and fish as much as I could, which is pretty awesome. And then just, you know, just explored all around Colorado and, and found that having an adventure vehicle just really makes access to all these places so much easier. 00:15:15 Dave: Yep. That’s it. And then when did the van were you always kind of thinking about the van, like, how did you how did you go from where you’re at there to actually doing all this stuff we’re talking about like, I mean, building out all because this is pretty technical, right? Some of the stuff we’re talking about. 00:15:28 Matt: It is. Yeah. Most definitely. So I’ve always been a builder. I’m actually my degree is in. I went to school for art and I was a sculpture major, but I ran I ran our wood shop and metal shop on campus. And so I’ve always been building I work construction on the side. I was a maintenance guy for my college, and so I always had a good mind for all the technical systems, as far as you know, and then all sorts of custom fabrication. And when you’re an art major, you know, you’re making weird stuff. And so you have to come up with creative solutions. And that lends itself really well to the industry. Just because you’re building in such a small space, you got to be pretty creative. And I had so then I was living in Boulder. My roommate sold his car and pulled up outside my job one day, and he had an empty van and he said, check it out, look what I got. And so he had this old pro or he had a a ProMaster. This is like twenty fifteen at the time. And and he said, oh I want to put a little kitchen in here. And I said, oh well I know this because my dad did all this kind of stuff back when I was a kid. And so, you know, we went to Home Depot, I think we dropped a grand total of one hundred dollars and built them a little kitchenette out of, like, one piece of plywood and some simple hinges and bolted it into the van. Put a little camp stove in there. And, uh, I think that weekend ran up to Buena Vista and went fishing in it. 00:16:34 Dave: There you go. Yeah. That’s sweet. 00:16:36 Matt: So that kind of got me back into this journey and upfitting vehicles and, you know, at the time, I had a little camper kit in my pickup truck, and that’s why he asked me to to do it. And so then, you know, fast forward a couple years later, he got his van professionally outfitted a years later and was working with another company here in Colorado. And he said, you know, these guys can’t pick up the phone. He said, Matt, why don’t you pick up the phone for them? And so I started doing sales for a van company here in Colorado. And, uh, you know, after about two years of doing that for them and, you know, doing some building on the floor and things like that, I realized there was a there was an open spot in the market for a DIY kit and helping people build these at home, just because not everybody can afford to get these professionally outfitted. And the space where I was wasn’t, they were not going to be set up to do any kind of DIY infrastructure or mail order. And so I, I said, you know, I’m going to go, go at my own. And, uh, so I started AVC and that was in twenty seventeen. 00:17:29 Dave: Wow. So that’s it. That’s an amazing story. When you talk about the DIY kits, you know, what’s the most popular thing people are starting or adding to their when they’re dying it? 00:17:38 Matt: Our core product or the things that we, you know, we sell a lot of are just the infrastructure build out pieces. And this is they’re the things that are important to get right the first time. And they’re kind of the core of your build. So we do insulated floor systems. We do drop in, uh, synthetic floor systems that are one hundred percent waterproof. And then we do all sorts of different kinds of wall kits and window packages and all that kind of thing. And so, you know, it’s the stuff that a lot of people will start, you know, that’s the first things you’re going to do. But it’s not the glamorous part. And it’s not the really fun part of building a van, tracing walls into your van or making up a wall kit for the first time. That’s not the sexy part of van life. The fun part of van life is like picking the colors and finishes and fabrics and then just going and using the van. And I think, I think a lot of people lose sight of, you know, when they get into building a van. They worry so much about building the van, and they forget that this is all about using the van. It’s not about building the van. And so we’re just trying to press fast forward for people so that you can, you know, it’s like, okay, I can just buy a floor and a wall and I can put these things in and I can go camping tomorrow. You know, you can put a wall and a floor in here in a day and, you know, throw a mattress in the back and you’re camping. And I think that’s the key is just don’t overthink it. 00:18:44 Dave: Right. So it’s not that hard. So you literally even if you’re not a like what if you’re not a super skilled carpenter or somebody with the skills there? Could you learn this and do this yourself? And like you’re saying, maybe a little bit longer than a day? 00:18:55 Matt: Yeah. I mean, yeah, a little bit longer than a day to get a fully built camper, of course. But um, yeah, if you don’t have, you know, you don’t really have to own a lot of power tools these days to build a vein yourself. I’d say the big things that are going to be a challenge are things like cutting windows in a vehicle. And there’s a lot of shops, myself included, that’ll be more than happy to have you come by. We’ll install some windows, put a fan in the roof, make sure it’s not going to leak, and then, you know, turn you loose on building the interior and so we can take care of some of those harder things. Or you know, we’ll put in aftermarket seating so that the kids are safe in the back and your insurance company is going to be happy. And then you can go to town building the rest of the van out. And, you know, if you want to build your own bed, build your own kitchen, you can do that. But if you don’t have those skills, you know, we also sell cabinets and bed systems and, you know, all sorts of things to make it just a bolt together kit. 00:19:38 Dave: That’s what’s cool, is that somebody, like you said, you got the both levels. They can if they want to get the complete build out, they can talk to you about that. But if they want to do this DIY sort of thing works well, what about people that are remotely maybe they’re not right around Colorado, maybe they’re on the east or West Coast. Is that something they can also work with you on, or would it be your recommendation there? 00:19:57 Matt: Yeah, I mean, there are built you know, there are builders all over the country. And I do recommend trying to find a local builder to you just because having that local support is going to be really handy. And we work with lots of professional outfitters and sell them pieces and parts and kits and things like that. And that’s uh, you know, I think right now we have seventy two shops in our B2B network. And so, you know, we work with shops all over the country, and we build vans for people all over the country. I just built a van for a gentleman that lives in Virginia, but I’ve built vans for people from Washington to Florida, Virginia, Maine, New Hampshire, Southern California, and everywhere in between. So we do have people from all over the country come and build out with us. But I do think working with a local builder is really good. And if there’s something that ABC offers that they don’t offer, you know, we we sell a lot of infrastructure kits and pieces and parts to these outfitters. And that’s, that’s one of the big things is, you know, a lot of these outfitters build sprinter. And so they don’t build transit. We’ll have, you know, the end user will see and realize, you know, a transit makes a lot more sense. I think it’s a much better value. And so a lot of these shops will come to me and say, hey, we normally build sprinter, can I just pick up a transit kit? And that way we can, you know, we can do mostly what we do, but we can kind of press, fast forward ourselves as a professional builder and get a nice finish on the Ford Transit and and get it nice for our customer I gotcha. 00:21:08 Dave: Wow. This is cool. So yeah, you got the shops around the country. So if somebody was in wherever you named the state, you could likely find somebody. So you recommend it is good to have somebody because like you said, you’re maybe you’re dying it. You’re putting in the floor. But yeah, you might not want to cut the roof out and put in a fan. You want to have that professionally done so you can stop by the shop and have them do a few parts, the hard stuff. Then you can and maybe ask them some questions while you’re there and then get you to the next step. Right? 00:21:31 Matt: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then and then you have a relationship with them. If something goes wrong in the future, you can you can fall back on them. And yeah, we do a lot of that here in Colorado. We’ll have people from multiple states over. They’ll drive out to Colorado. We’ll put in a floor system for them. We’ll probably put in a furnace, put in a rooftop, or you can put in a rooftop fan and some windows, all those hard parts, and then they’ll take the rest of the kit and they’ll just load it up in the back of the van and drive home and then and then build out the rest of their vehicle. 00:21:55 Dave: Nice. Well, what about so you’ve got the vans, you’re the transit, you know, for transit expert. You’re getting into some of the the next the other vans that are out there. What about what about trucks? I think that’s something people also have out there. Do you maybe talk about the difference between because you’ve had a truck, the difference between maybe the van versus the truck, and what are your thoughts there? As far as. And do you do some build outs like could somebody take maybe one of your things and throw it in the back of a truck if they had some sort of a shell or camper? 00:22:25 Matt: We sell a couple of portable units, like we have a thing we call the Fountain of Youth, which is a portable sink cabinet. And that’s, you know, it’s just an all battery powered water, little simple water system that you could you could throw that in the back of a pickup truck and then pull it out to your campsite, put it at the picnic table and have a, you know, a little bit of a creature comfort and some simplicity there. But for the most part, we specialize in vans just because the pieces have to be so specific to the build out to be efficient, that, you know, that’s kind of what we did. And when AVC first started, we actually used to do a lot of pickup truck systems. So I did like drawer systems and platform beds and things like that, just because that was my background. And even when I first started AVC, I still had my Tacoma, you know. So I was still camping in my Tacoma. And we have all the equipment here. We have Cncs, we do CAD design. And so we built slide out trays and cool drawer systems and storage systems and things like that. But, you know, we never got into like big slide in campers or anything like that. 00:23:18 Dave: Yeah. And now do you have I thought there was something, um, I don’t know if it’s a build out, but is there a new camper thing you guys have coming in the future that’s different from the the sprinter, the vans? Or are you guys sticking with the van style? 00:23:31 Matt: We are on the van thing right now, but we are in the background. We have a trailer that we’re developing. That would be it’s kind of like a supplement or it’s kind of like a it’s a take on a trailer. So, you know, camper trailer, something that would work for a van that you could supplement your van lifestyle, or you could put it behind your Chevy or your Ford F-150, something like that, and pull it out to a site. 00:23:53 Dave: Gotcha. So that’s coming. That’s in the future. 00:23:55 Matt: That’s in the works. You know, with the sprinter coming on board this year, we’re probably going to focus on moving all of our pieces and parts into the sprinter platform and then maybe get into the trailer thing in the last part of the year. That might be a good winter project for us. You know, like winter time twenty twenty six. 00:24:10 Dave: Right, okay. And maybe on that line just talk about this. Might be obvious to some. But you know, the van, you know, versus the truck or, you know, like you’re saying you’ve kind of had both. Why is the van so much better than, say, let’s just say you had some sort of a pick up with a, a shell back there and all that. Why is the van Superior over that? 00:24:28 Matt: I mean, the van is nice because you can, you know, just stand up inside. You have a little bit of living room inside the vehicle itself. You know, there’s a lot more systems that can fit in a vehicle this size. And so you can have, you know, I can have a queen size bed, you know, like a dorm size fridge, full water system, sink and everything like that and still have room to stand up and get my waders on and put my boots on and be in a nice, warm camper and get myself totally decked out. I have enough room to set up a ten foot fly rod inside the vehicle so it all, you know, all set up and everything tied on, and then then jump out of the vehicle and hit the river. Um, which you can’t really do in the back of a pickup truck. And so, so there’s a little bit more creature comforts in a van, but the alternative is, you know, in a pickup truck, you can get a lot more places. And so there’s still, you know, I still think there’s some use case for pickup trucks and, you know, getting into your truck and getting out there. 00:25:14 Dave: Yeah. You mean because of most of them have four wheel drive? Is that is what you’re saying? 00:25:18 Matt: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like my transits, all wheel drive, but it’s not a proper four wheel drive. And vans are big. You know, one of the advantages of them is they’re large. So you can be inside, you can get set up and everything. But that also means it’s big on the outside. And so fitting down a tight trail or under trees or something like that is a lot of times, especially here in Colorado, it’s just not feasible. 00:25:35 Dave: Right. Yeah. Yeah. There’s places that I remember, you know, going back to John Gierach, you know, R.I.P., you know, he was on the podcast, I think the first time he was on, he talked about he’s in Colorado, probably not far from you. I think he’s near the national park there. And he talked about how he has this little jeep or he had this jeep, this little, you know, Jeep, whatever, you know, four wheel rig. And he loved it because he could get to those fishing spots that nobody else could. Right. He’d have his four by Jeep and just go for it. And and he just loved, you know, to driving around town. But I feel like. Yeah, I mean, there’s certain situations where, you know, just like I said, if I was had my pull behind camper, which we rarely use, you know, there’s no way I’m taking that out to any, you know what I mean? Any any place. It’s kind of just on the street. But I think for what you’re saying is the vans all wheel drive van, I mean, can go a lot of places, but you just got to be careful, right? You’re not going to take it down the thickest bushwhack road. So that is a good point. 00:26:27 Matt: Yeah. It is, you know, and you know the vans are they’re surprisingly capable you know. So as long as you have the room on the trail you can get a lot of places. And you’d be surprised where these things can get, you know, you’re just not going to get there necessarily fast because you have to remember it’s mostly a house inside. So we’re not trying to rally down some dirt roads, but you can get you can get out there pretty far and and you’re fully self-supported, which is pretty awesome. So you’re comfortable when you get there too? 00:26:48 Dave: Yeah, definitely. What are some of the you mentioned like doing the rod in the van. What are some of the are there fly fishing focused features that you guys have there that somebody would be thinking about? 00:26:59 Matt: I do an interior storage for fly rods that we put up on the ceiling. Nice. We developed that. Just because the vans are so tall, it’s hard to put something like a rod vault on the top of the van. So, you know, you need a you need a stepladder to get up there and actually get into it. So I developed an interior fly rod storage so I could put, you know, fully strung fly rods inside the vehicle. And that way I can have, you know, I can have a nymphing rod and a fly rod or maybe a dry dropper rod just set up and ready to go in the van all the time, which just makes it that much easier to jump out of the van and fish for an hour while my wife and kids are distracted. I can get out there and knock a couple of fish out, and then, uh, and then just, you know, get back to the road or get back to the family time. 00:27:34 Dave: Right. That’s awesome. So that’s a cool feature. So, so no need to to buy the rod vault. You’ve actually got it. You could build it out inside. 00:27:41 Matt: Yeah. It’s you know just it’s just because these vehicles are so tall, you know, the the transit is almost ten feet tall outside. So if you put a vault on top of this, you know, now you’re ten and a half feet and you’re, you’re up there getting into it. 00:27:51 Dave: Do the transits. I mean, because there’s different levels of those two, right. You can get the you can get the are there how many levels are there like three heights of the transit or what does that look like. 00:27:59 Matt: Yeah, there’s three heights. They have a high medium and low. And the the low roof is really small. It’s it’s designed to fit in a seven foot garage, so it’s more like minivan size in all reality. Uh, and those don’t make very good campers. I don’t really recommend that one, but, uh, the medium is just under nine feet tall, and so that makes a really good daily driver. It fits in a lot of drive thrus to grab a cup of coffee, stuff like that. And it’s tall enough inside. It’s like five ten inside. So that’s just about how tall I am. I can’t quite stand up inside, but I can mostly stand up and it’s comfortable enough to get dressed and things like that in the vehicle. And you know, they’re a little bit lower. So wind profiles nice. You know, if I’m driving across Wyoming or something like that, I don’t get blown around as much. And then the high roof van is ten feet tall outside and it’s six foot eight inside. So lots of room, lots of room for tall guys, things like that. You can you can stand up in here even if you’re six two and have room above your head, not be cramped inside like you would be in a in a sprinter. 00:28:53 Dave: Wow. Yeah. So those are two big ones. So medium or high. And then out of those two, which one do you think is the most common? 00:28:59 Matt: I think the high roof is going to be the most common. It’s just you have more room inside for the extra creature comforts so you know you have more room for overhead cabinets, just that much more storage. You have room over your head for things like fly rods to be stored. And, you know, even in this van, I can have fly rods above it. And if you’re six two, you’d still have room above you for those fly rods to live and not not be, you know, grazing your head on them or anything like that. 00:29:20 Dave: Gotcha. So the high end, the only disadvantage really is, yeah, it’s a little taller, maybe the wind on the highway, but other than that there’s not a lot of disadvantages of the higher roof. It doesn’t seem like. 00:29:31 Matt: Not really. No. I just I think the big one is, uh, like some people, if they’re doing a daily driver or they want, you know, the daily driver thing is probably the biggest one. And I’d say the medium roof honestly looks cooler. So, you know, if that’s something that’s that’s important to you, you know, like it’s a big van. I think they all look kind of cool. But I’m obviously pretty biased. And so the medium roof arguably does look a little bit cooler. You can put some big tires on it and black it out and things like that. And it’s like, okay, yeah, this is this is a pretty sweet vehicle. 00:29:57 Dave: That’s true. Yeah. That’s right. And and I guess you mentioned the all wheel drive, but do they? I mean, yeah, I always think about that. The difference between all wheel drive and four wheel drive. I guess one is it’s just kind of all wheel like a lot of cars are, you know, tons of all wheel drives. The big difference is between like a four wheel drive is you don’t have four low, I guess. But other than that, it’s pretty similar. Right. To it’s essentially a four wheel drive car. 00:30:17 Matt: Yeah it is. And it’s you know, it’s computer controlled. So they do the four computer does a pretty good job of power management and putting power in the wheels where it needs to. But it’s not you know like you said there’s no for low. You know, there’s no option to put lockers in or anything like that. And so it’s a little bit more limited. But for anywhere realistically a van should go. I think the all wheel drive is totally fine. 00:30:37 Dave: Okay, good. Let’s keep it back on that bill. So we got the person we talked about. Maybe it’s a couple. They’re getting ready. They’re they’re getting ready to think about this. What are the do you think the kind of the most common mistakes people are making before they’re getting into this and talking to, you know, a builder like yourself, what are, you know, are there some common mistakes people make if they go into this? Let’s just say they don’t talk to you. What are those common things people do? 00:31:00 Matt: A lot of people will. Let’s say they haven’t talked to a professional builder, or they just kind of wing it on their own. They build a van and it’s functional and that’s great. But then they hit a certain point where they realize, oh, I didn’t plan for this. I didn’t plan for that. And so you got to take a lot of steps backwards to take another step forward. And that’s the thing you see a lot of is, you know, people will have a sixty percent finished camper and then they’ll come in, they’ll say, hey, I want to add a furnace, but there’s no provisions there for it. And so then we have to open up the van. We got to take a lot of pieces and parts out, just to get to the point where we can safely and efficiently install a heater or something like that. That’s the big one, I think. Coming up with a plan for your ultimate goal in the, you know, your your end goal is, is the most important. And then starting small, you know, I think people add too much to a van, especially when they get into it. You know, you you fall down this hole, you’re on YouTube, you’re on Instagram, you’re looking at all these different things and you think, oh, I need that, oh, I need that. You pull all these ideas from all these different people. But there’s no there’s never like a, never a trimming process where you take things out of the vehicle. And so, so they have this laundry list of all these things they want to put in a van and you don’t need that much. You know, it’s not a house. You know, I think you can trim the fat and get something that’s lean and mean and get a lot more comfortable living out of the vehicle. 00:32:07 Dave: That’s right, that’s right. No, this is this is great. So. So, yeah, there’s a lot of and kind of like me. I tend to be that way. And maybe a lot of us are where, you know, you’re going on a trip and you throw everything in, you know, except the kitchen sink or whatever, right? But you can put too much. And it’s that fine line of like, just having the right amount of stuff. So what are those things that you think? I mean, we talked about power. I think nowadays power is becoming more and more important, right? Because we’ve got all these devices and stuff. What do you think the top things, if you’re getting started, somebody again thinking, what are the, you know, the biggest thing they need down the line to maybe the less popular things. What do you think that is? 00:32:44 Matt: First things first bed. You got to have a comfortable bed that is more important than anything else in there. The bed is not comfortable, or you’re making compromises on the bed or the bed size. Anything like that, you’re doing it wrong. You know, like, the whole point of the van is to be comfortable. Have a comfortable night’s sleep. After that, I would say power system. Just because everything relies on power these days. You know, from our phones and our devices to, you know, rooftop fan and a heater and all those things, you know, you’re going to need power for all of that. Then I would get into maybe climate control. So a fan, a heater, if you’re a winter sport kind of person or you’re going to get into shoulder season and things like that. And then refrigerator having the ability to not deal with soggy lunch meat in a cooler is so nice. 00:33:24 Dave: Right. Yeah. The cooler. Right. The melting ice is the worst. 00:33:27 Matt: Yeah. You know, even really nice coolers. You know, after four days, you got you got soggy food in the bottom of that cooler no matter what. And so having a fridge that’s always cold, then you can have, you know, I can have frozen ice cream sandwiches in here and food for a week packed away in fridge. And it’s it’s just ready to go, which is awesome. And I think at that point you’re probably in a really efficient camper. So then you can start getting a little more creature comforts from there. You’re adding things like maybe a simple water system that’s just cold water. Then you can wash dishes and get prepped and wash your hands and things like that. And then from there I would start adding things like hot water. Hot water just makes everything so much easier. It’s a pretty bougie thing to have in a vehicle, but we see it more and more these days. You know, washing dishes with warm water is it’s a lot more efficient on water too, which is really nice. 00:34:12 Dave: Oh, right. Is it when you do the hot water is it seems like the challenges are you know, you got the power. I guess power is the biggest thing because you’ve got to power this fan and heater and fridge and all this stuff. Right. Is that and hot water. Is hot water a big addition, a big challenge or is that just pretty easy? Like, why wouldn’t you just put hot water in right from the start as opposed to cold? 00:34:32 Matt: The big one is just cost. Hot water heaters for a van are remarkably expensive. Just because they they’re very small. They have to have a lot of technology packed into them. They have to be able to be winterized. I mean, you can put these little like, under-sink hot water heaters that you’d have maybe in your kitchen, in your house. And they’re fairly inexpensive, but they’re not set up for a van. They don’t winterize Well, and so you’re going to end up replacing it after a couple of years anyway. 00:34:54 Dave: Yeah. That’s the other big problem you got to be careful of, right. You’ve got water now. And if you’re in a place where it’s going to freeze, you could break all your water lines, right? That’s a major problem. 00:35:02 Matt: Yes. You have to consider that kind of set up for when you design your vehicle and making sure you can winterize it easily and just get it set up and, you know, in hours. Some people will try to do a four season camper where they can run water all winter long. The places we go, it’s just too darn cold. We’ll get into negative fourteen here in Colorado and you know, and then we’ll go to the mountains from there. And there’s just no way you can keep a water system liquid at that point. 00:35:23 Dave: So that’s what you have to do. So basically the yeah that’s a big question right. If you are living in it, let’s just say somebody is living throughout the whole year. This would probably be more the extreme. I’m not sure what percentage of people are getting these to live in, but if you did that and you’re out there in the winter and it’s fourteen degrees, you know, I guess you just have to have more of an extreme insulation or how would they do that? So you still have water? 00:35:43 Matt: I mean, I do have a couple friends that live in their van and they do a lot of, you know, skiing and big mountain stuff. And so they they need to be able to live comfortably in the van in the winter. And there’s two things you can do. One, you can put heating pads and heating wraps around all your pipes and things like that, and keep the van warm for yourself. You know, if you’re in the van and you’re running your heater and it’s warm enough for you to be in there, typically your water system is going to be okay. So you just want to make sure all the water system is inside the van, you know, and you don’t have exterior tanks and things like that. And then I think a couple of provisions, like putting a heater wrap over your pump and stuff like that just so it doesn’t freeze up. The other one is just you just run out of a simple jerry can in the winter. I would say the biggest thing people put in these vans that you don’t need is a shower. These big interior showers never get used a lot, and that’s a big one for winter sport people is, you know, they just they get a Planet Fitness membership or something like that. And they can take a hot shower at the gym, and then they can go back to the van and, and make dinner and be comfortable and run the heater and stuff like that. Doing something as simple as running out of a five gallon Jerry can just. And you can still use your sink. You just don’t have running water out of the faucet. It’s a I think it’s a good holdover for, you know, for the winter time. 00:36:46 Dave: And and what is the jerry can? 00:36:48 Matt: Oh, just like a five gallon water jug. So just, you know, something with a spigot on it. I can set it up on the countertop. I can, you know, it’s basically just the gravity fed faucet at that point. 00:36:57 Dave: Yeah. So you have water. So, yeah, I mean, you’ve got this system, so you’ve got water there to use for whatever. You just can’t necessarily you can’t take a shower. And that would be an extra. We’re just talking about the extreme winter. Right. Because once you get out of the winter time, you mentioned the the water, the shower in the back. So is that something that sounds like that’d be pretty cool. This is kind of like an outdoor shower. You can kind of set up your curtain if you need to describe that shower a little bit. 00:37:20 Matt: Yeah. So we just do like a regular shower fixture off the back of the vehicle. So you open the back doors and it’s right there on the back of what we call a utility cabinet. So we do these boxes that live over the wheel wells. And that’s what our power and water go inside of. And so we’ll just have a shower set up right there at the back of the vehicle. You open up the back doors, you can put up a curtain, or you can pop up a little tent and then and do a shower outside. And that’s all you need. I think it’s great. It’s a great space compromise for the inside of the vehicle. You know, if I’m coming back from a mountain bike ride, I can rinse off with warm water. And, you know, just in my, like, bibs in the parking lot and no big deal, jump in the van and go. Or if you know, we’re in Moab, we’ve been out there for a few days. I can set up a little shower tent, which is just kind of like, it’s like the size of a porta potty. And then, uh, that just keeps all the wind away from you and makes it a lot nicer. And, you know, the whole family can run through and take showers and get cleaned up, and then we can just pack it away and and we gain that space back. 00:38:09 Dave: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so cool. It’s I just think about all the outdoor activities, you know, that this would be awesome. Like, surfing is another one, right? I mean, surfing I mean, you see these all the time vans out there and being able to come back and rinse off all the salt off your gear and same with same with fishing. You talk about waders. You know, that’s something. Again, not all of us are great at cleaning the waders, but being able to keep them clean and that’s going to make those lasts longer and all that. So this is a cool feature. 00:38:34 Matt: I mean, hanging up my kit on the back of the van and rinsing everything off before I pack it away in my bag is so nice and it’s so nice not to have to think about it when I get home. You know, if I can do that on the side of the river, as I’m like, you know, putting everything away and putting my kid away and having a snack. And then when I get home, it’s that much easier and I can just, you know, I can leave my kit drying as I drive home and then throw the waders back in my bag, and then I’m ready for my next adventure. 00:38:54 Dave: Yeah, it seems like to me again, I think we’re, you know, in the outdoor space. So it just seems like a no brainer. But to me, it seems like, man, why would you not have a van? You know, with what we’re talking about, I get I guess the one thing obviously is the price. You know, you said these are not cheap. Although a new pickup these days is going to run you sixty thousand or more. So, I mean, the stuff’s getting expensive, but I feel like, you know, the one way you could do this is to actually build it out, which is cool, right? You can. What does it typically cost for? Let’s say you get the van. Let’s say you have a van right now. You’ve got, you know, the Ford Transit. What is the build out cost? I know there’s different levels, maybe from the smaller end just to build what you need. The basics say a bed and a floor versus going the full monty. What is the cost? Roughly? 00:39:39 Matt: You could build a bed in a floor for a few thousand dollars, you know, bed floor, walls, things like that. If you’re going to cut all the pieces and parts yourself, you know, a few thousand bucks and a mattress on Amazon, you’re ready to go. And then I would say if you’re going into like full fledged camper with all the bells and whistles, you’re probably twenty five K into like your full kit if you’re putting it in yourself. But that’s professional level components. You know, that’s like professional aluminum cabinetry, full insulated floor and, you know, nice professional interior systems, power system, all that kind of stuff. 00:40:07 Dave: Everything. Yeah. And you could build the cool thing about that is you could. Yeah. Start with the three. Like you said, start with the basics. So you got the floor plan, you know, put a few thousand dollars into it, do it yourself as you have time and then build up and then hit the next thing. And then you’ve got this thing, which is kind of fun, actually. I feel like the build out would be really cool to do because you can actually, you know, you’re building, maybe you’re customizing it to exactly your fit right as you go to what you need. It seems like it’s a do you find more and more people are getting into the custom? Is that a equal mix of people that you’re seeing? 00:40:38 Matt: Yeah, I think so. And you know, it’s just it’s so nice to be able to tailor it to exactly to your needs and your style. I think as these vans have gotten more popular and more expensive, we’re getting more, you know, a lot of people that wouldn’t necessarily build one at home realize, oh, okay, there’s a lot of good level or high level pieces and parts that I can pick up online or pick up from a builder and, and put them in my van. And so, you know, they don’t have to be an engineer to design their own cabinets and things like that. But they can they can pick and choose all the different pieces and put them in their van. And I think that’s one of the coolest things right now in our industry is, you know, I can pick, you know, even personally here at the shop, we’ll grab these cabinets from this builder, we’ll put in our sink cabinet. We’ll we’ll grab this other guy’s slide out tray. You know, we’ll just, you know, oh, this other company’s tire carrier for the back. And we put all these different pieces and parts and make the perfect recipe for a camper for someone. 00:41:23 Dave: Nice. Well, this has been good. Let’s take it out here with our our road trip segment we’re doing here. And we’re again everybody we’re starting it now. It’s the winter time but we’re getting ready. We’re starting to think about trips right. Getting that next big road trip and and all that. So I’m going to have a couple of random questions for you here. But let’s start with the the tips again. So somebody’s getting ready to build this. What are a few other things that you haven’t mentioned today that people should be thinking about before they jump into this? 00:41:48 Matt: Do some research. So ABC has a YouTube channel. We have over two hundred videos on there teaching you how to build your own van, and you can get an idea of what you’re going to get yourself into. You know, when you get into these build outs. So whether it’s completely designing and building your own interior pieces and parts, or picking up a couple of pieces and parts from ABC and kind of pressing fast forward on your build out, I think the best way is just to get your research in and do that kind of thing, and then sit down with yourself and set a realistic budget and a realistic time frame to what you want to do. You know, if it’s June and you have a trip in July and you work a full time job and you want a full built camper, it’s not going to happen. You know, you know, it takes some real time. And so, you know, if you’re working nights and weekends on this, I’d plan for four months or so to get this van fully built, you know. And that’s and that’s if you have a life. Right. You know, if you’re if it’s like, this is my singular mission in life is like work and build this camper. You should knock it out, of course. But you know, if you got a regular life and wife and kids or anything like that, you know, you got to just plan accordingly and then use the van as you go. So do that simple initial build out and go use it and remember why you’re building this van. You know, I think if you get in the weeds and you, you get too into the details of building the van and you forget why you’re trying to use it, you know, you can always add more to it over time, but just have a good strategy, do your research and build it over time. 00:43:04 Dave: Yeah, I love the quote. This kind of applies to this, I think, and a lot of things. But, uh, you know, progress over perfection. I feel like a lot of us are like, you know, I’m kind of I can be that way where you’re trying to make it perfect, and then you you try to make it too perfect, and it just, you know, it doesn’t work. It’s better to. Right? Progress is better. Is that. Do you feel that’s pretty good for the camper build out? 00:43:24 Matt: I think there’s a great mantra. Absolutely. Yes. It’s probably a good mantra for most things in life. 00:43:28 Dave: Yeah. Good. Okay. So so the YouTube channel is awesome. So right now people can go over there and actually watch some of these build outs check and they can learn and they can kind of discover that you mentioned the budget, knowing how much you have. And the time frame is good. And so yeah. So it could be a nice winter project for sure if people want if somebody wanted to get started right now and they had you know, they can get going on this. And what about the vans do you think, you know, finding let’s say they’re even at the square one where they don’t have the van yet. Where what’s your recommendation on finding a van? Are there lots of places. Should you buy a new one? What are your thoughts there? Again, I guess that depends on your budget. 00:44:01 Matt: The best thing to do is going to be buy a new vehicle. Mostly because realistically you’re going to pour some real money into the vehicle and so you don’t want to be upside down on a build out. You buy some old van with one hundred and eighty thousand miles, and then you pour another thirty thousand dollars into a build out, or twenty thousand dollars into a build out. Okay. Now you’re putting, you know, you’re how much life do you have in that vehicle? And, you know, and use vans aren’t that great of a deal. You know, it used to be, you know, twenty seventeen or twenty, you know, twenty eighteen, you could buy some you get some good deals out there. But, uh, lately it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of good deals on vehicles. And so I’d say it’s better to just go ahead and buy a vehicle, buy one new, get all the nice modern bells and whistles in it. They’re so nice. You know, I would say after twenty two, uh, things got super nice in the van world. You know, Apple CarPlay, radar, cruise control, all that kind of stuff. Just all the creature comforts we’re used to in a modern vehicle are are in these vans. And so they’re pretty dialed. 00:44:51 Dave: Oh they are. Yeah. So you can get everything. So you could get the probably just like, uh, you know, like any car you can get different levels of a limited or whatever heated seats. It’s kind of you can get everything you want there. Right. 00:45:02 Matt: Exactly one hundred percent. All the bells and whistles. Yeah. And then you can add the build out on, on top of that in the back. I mean, you know, if you are on a budget and you’re looking for something, there are some deals to be had. I would just I would just be thoughtful about what you’re putting in the build, you know, based on the level of vehicle you’re buying. You know, if you’re buying a clapped out van, you know, for twenty K or something like that. And, you know, hard to say clapped out for twenty K, but you get the idea. You know, if you’re you’re buying a relatively inexpensive vehicle and then, you know, I just say keep it simple. You know, at that point. 00:45:30 Dave: Yeah. Keep it simple. And like you said, go back to what we talked about earlier, the simple things you need, you know, the floor, get the basics in there so you can build it out the right way as you go and not have to backtrack. That sounds like that’s a big take home message today. 00:45:43 Matt: Yeah. And you know, and realistically, we build a lot of vans for people that are building their second or third van because, you know, they built one maybe themselves on a budget at first. And they realized, oh yeah, this is something I like. And so they said, okay, I want to do this again, but I want to do it right, or I want to do it, you know, with a few more comfort, comfort things in here. And now I realize I don’t have the time to do that or I don’t have the skill to do that. And so then we’ll build build somebody second van. The other thing is you can go and rent a van. You know, there are some companies now that you can go online, you can rent them just like like an Airbnb. You know, there’s a company called outdoorsy that does rentals. So you can you can kind of try before you buy. You can rent a van, rent it for a few nights, go use it for a weekend and then realize, oh yeah, I do like this. Or nope, I’m a hotel person, you know, like I thought this would be for me. And nope, that’s not for me. And that’s some good money, too. You know, it’s some good investment to realize that this is for me or this is not for me. 00:46:33 Dave: Yeah. It’s a and again, when we got into this, like I said, we had this pull behind that we bought a while back that, you know, we just don’t use too much very often because it’s so big. But it’s, um, it’s a lifestyle, you know, you realize when you get the camper you get into, it’s not something where you just kind of park it and let it sit there. You got to really be. It becomes a lifestyle. Do you feel like the van? I mean, I guess that that’s probably the most heard thing, right? Van lifestyle. But it is right. You have to kind of love love that lifestyle. 00:47:00 Matt: It’s true. And that’s the that’s one of the big things about Havana is you can just jump in and use it. And it’s so easy. And you know, compared to a camper, you know, pull behind, you have to oh, I gotta back up the truck. I gotta pull it, you know, out from behind the house or I got to go pick it up from storage or something like that. You know, it’s just it’s another barrier to entry. Whereas a van, if it’s outfitted, you know, you know, you have all the things in there. And on Friday night you can drive home from work, park your daily driver in the garage and then walk out to the van, jump in and drive away. You’re there. You know you’re ready to go. You can, you know, maybe throw some fresh groceries in there Thursday night and put them in the fridge. You don’t have to do anything. And Friday night, right after work, you can be on the road and you can be, you know, you can be at a campsite Friday night in a few hours. 00:47:37 Dave: Yeah, exactly. Well, and that’s the thing I remember with that camper when we got one of the big scary, you know, things that came up was like, oh, man, you know, you’re driving this thing down the road. And I remember a couple of times we got in a couple of precarious places. I remember one time I took when we first got it, I drove down some random road. Again, we were just out there camp, and I had to back up the camper for like a half a mile because it was a dead end road. You know what I mean? And it was on a river, and I was like, on a lake. It was like right on the water. So. And I’m luckily I’m good at backing up trailers. But again, it was just a reminder. But as we were going, you know, banging it around and bouncing, you’re thinking like, man, all that stuff, like you said, it’s like a house. How do you I’m sure you build these things out. How do you build it out? So if you’re if you’re kind of going down a rough road, stuff bounce around or are you worrying about that or is that all pretty tight? 00:48:22 Matt: It’s all pretty tight in our vehicles. But you know, all of our cabinets bolt into the superstructure of the vehicle. So everything is super, super strong in the vehicle. And then all of our cabinets latch shut and have locking mechanisms so that everything is buttoned up nice and tight in the vehicle. I’d say, you know, the main thing I’ll hear bouncing around is like my gear in the back that I just dumped in the garage because I was, you know, in a rush or just it’s like, okay, my wife handed me four more things to put in here. Where am I going to put them? Um, and they just cram it in the back, and then you’re driving down the road and you hear, oh, my kids rock collection is rattling around back there. So, yeah, you know, everything’s pretty tight. Pretty safe in here, which is nice. You know, having a having a place for everything. And everything in its place is definitely a van life mantra, that is. 00:48:59 Dave: I like that one. That’s a good one. Nice. What about you mentioned the kids. So I have a couple kids as well. Um, what does that look like when you guys you’re on the road? So describe that with the bed because you’ve got a big bed. How do you guys do the sleeping with the kids? I guess it depends on how big they are, right? 00:49:14 Matt: I have two kids. I have a an older stepdaughter who’s about ten years older, and my youngest now they’re five and fifteen. But when we first started out, a lot of times I had a rooftop tent on top of a medium roof van, so I’d pop up the tent and dad would go sleep in the tent upstairs, and then mom and the older daughter would sleep in a bed in the back of the van, and our baby would sleep in a pack and play on top of a two person bench seat. And so, you know, I kind of designed it specifically around that. And then in the back of that van we had a dinette. And so the dinette would convert to a bed. So that was the main bed. And then we had a little bunk that would be like an east west across the van. And as the the little one got older, that’s what she would sleep in as a little bunk bed across the back. And, and that was a really good van that we, you know, I’m a, I’m a van builder. So I kind of I move through vans, you know every couple of years. So my next van I built with two queen size beds top and bottom. 00:50:01 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:50:01 Matt: And they were stacked up in the back. But it was, you know, it was tight because I still had room for bikes underneath. So we had like a thirty two inch garage underneath. And then I had so I could take off the front wheel off a bike and put it underneath. And then we had two beds and the upper bed was on an electric bed lift, so I could put the kids to bed upstairs, or actually mom and mom and daughter upstairs sleeping. Hit the button, raise them up. Then I could climb into the bed with my youngest. We would get settled. Then I hit the button and then it would come out and split the difference. So everybody had oh wow, about twenty two inches. So it was a little bit like a submarine bunks or something like that, but it was enough that you could roll over and not scrape your shoulders on the upper bed or something like that, but it was a little tight. Then our newest van, which is the one we currently have, we built this one with a bed in the back, and then we have another rooftop tent from a company called Super Pacific, and they build a tent in Portland, Oregon, and it has a pass through that you can pass. You can climb up from inside the vehicle. 00:50:52 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:50:53 Matt: Now I have a bed on top and a bed inside. Everybody’s got a nice big, comfortable sleeping space and the kids can talk to us through the porthole. 00:50:59 Dave: No kidding. So there’s a hole. You cut a hole in the roof into the. Yeah, yeah. 00:51:03 Matt: There’s like a sixteen by twenty eight hole in the roof that you can climb up through. And, uh, and then, you know, there’s another full size bed now on the roof. And when you’re in a campsite, it’s the kids love it because you’re up ten feet off the ground. 00:51:15 Dave: It’s all. 00:51:15 Matt: Around. You got the windows. And you know, personally, when I’m out, if I’m on the river, I’ll sleep up there because it’s pretty awesome to. 00:51:21 Dave: Uh, yeah. 00:51:22 Matt: Pop the top and wake up and I can see up the, you know, half a mile up the river. No problem. Uh, it’s pretty sweet. 00:51:27 Dave: Oh, that’s great. And it’s a pop up tent. Like a soft sided pop up tent. 00:51:31 Matt: Exactly right. Yeah. 00:51:32 Dave: God. That’s great. Yeah. And that’s the thing about those is that they’re. This isn’t like, for those that don’t know, it’s not like some flimsy thing that you’re going to replace next year. I mean, they build these these pop up tents now. Pretty pretty bulletproof. Right. And they can hand up to the wind. 00:51:46 Matt: Yeah. They’re super burly, heavy canvas. Um, and, you know, and set up super easy. So you just, you know, I undo the locking mechanism, push it up, and it lifts up and out of the way, you know, and a nice, comfortable mattress inside. You know, I got I have lights, I have power, I have a fan. I have all that kind of stuff up there too. Um, and so, you know, everybody’s pretty cozy. Comfy. 00:52:05 Dave: That’s sweet. Where could somebody see maybe your van or something, like some of these things we’ve been talking about. Where is the best place to go? 00:52:11 Matt: There’s a couple show series that come around. So we do, uh, we do some regional shows called Adventure Van Expo, and they go mostly in the West. Um, every once in a while they’ll have an East Coast show or something like that. But if you’re anywhere in the West, you know, between Colorado, Montana, Oregon, Washington, California, uh, there’s, you know, there’s things like this all over and those are probably going to be the best shows to see. Lots of variety. There’s also another series called Overland Expo. That thing’s been around forever. And the Overland Expo. You can see camper vans, but you can also see these like pull behind trailers, slide ins, you know, really cool off road rigs, overlanding rigs on forerunners, all that kind of thing so you can get a good idea. Those are really good because you can see everything and you can realize, oh, you know, I’m a I’m a Tacoma guy. I’m not a van guy or, you know, this Tacoma is nice, but man, these vans, there’s a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of comfort. I can be a lot more comfortable in this van. And then, uh, we are actually going to a show here in Colorado for the first time. We’re actually going to the Denver fly fishing show. I think that’s going to be a really cool one for us. Uh, meet some cool people that have like minded interests and and get to show off. Just. I think van life is like a concept for people rather than, you know, these big van shows. It’s like, okay, what’s your A to B comparison between your company and this other company. But they can come and just shake us down and see what we got. Just, you know, from a fresh eyes. 00:53:26 Dave: Yeah. Perfect. No. That gives three awesome options in person. And the great thing is, I will be at the Denver show, so I’ll be able to check in with you there and see it in person as well. And we could chat there at the show. So this is this is going to be fun. And I think the Denver show is a good one to go to. Uh, all the fly fishing shows are great, but I think the Denver is still like the biggest one. So you definitely get a mix of people from all around the country, which is great. 00:53:49 Matt: And that’s what I hear. I’m excited just to I’m excited to go to the show myself. 00:53:52 Dave: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s the thing about it. Yeah. You’re going to build a if you can get some time, definitely save some time to go check out some of the displays and the other products and all the I mean, you know, a lot of them have been on the podcast, but, you know, Land and Mayer and others who are going to be presenting, you know, you got some of the best people if you want to up your fly fishing game this year, too. It’s a good thing. 00:54:11 Matt: Yeah. I’m excited. I mean, you know, we’ve built I built some vans for some fly fishing reps here in Colorado, and so it’ll be cool to to see what they do and, you know, pick up some ideas for casting instruction and things like that to, uh, you know, I got some things to learn. Most definitely. 00:54:24 Dave: Yeah. Yeah, we all do. Yeah. The casting is something we’re always thinking about. It just was reading some emails this morning and, you know, it’s just like, okay, you can cast, but how do you maybe get more accurate or how do you make it a little bit further cast? Right. If you’re maybe you’re getting into salt water fishing, you need to make that seventy foot cast in the wind, you know? And so getting some help there is always good. 00:54:44 Matt: That’s it. Yeah. I thought it was hot stuff here in Colorado. And I can I can do pretty well here in Colorado. But we recently took a trip down to Alabama. I did a little bit of saltwater fly fishing and was quickly humbled. 00:54:54 Dave: Good. That’s what I was going to ask you on our road trip segment I mentioned is that, you know, what is your next or past or next road trip you have planned? It sounds like you’ve been you’ve been out there. Do you guys do you guys have anything on the on the docket, or do you kind of plan out in advance or just kind of let it come to you? 00:55:08 Matt: We do plan some big summer trips around some of these around show series and things like that. You know, I have a family trip end of May, early June. We’re going to be going to Northern California and through Oregon and doing some coastal camping along Oregon. And so usually I’ll drive the van out and I’ll have the family fly to the West Coast. And it kind of saves. It saves both of us. Saves my five. You know, my daughters from, you know, twenty hours across the country and saves me from twenty hours of them across the country to just sitting in seats. And so that frees me up to do a little bit of fishing and adventuring on the way there, which is really cool because I’ll go through I’ll go through Idaho, I’ll go through Wyoming, I’ll go through maybe Utah or Oregon, and I can, you know, I can have some really good days and I can kind of take my time and take the long weekend and drive out there by myself and enjoy it. Then we’ll pick up the family and do some solid family camping along the coast and having fun doing the beach thing. And then. Then I’ll drop them off at the airport and do the same thing on the way back. 00:56:05 Dave: That’s a great idea. 00:56:06 Matt: It’s been a good recipe for our family. It’s like it’s a little bougie, I will admit. You know, having the family fly in and out. But my wife works, and she has, you know, she has things she has to get to. And so it makes bigger trips a reality for our family. You know, we don’t have two weeks to drive across the country, camp and then drive back, but they can take a week off and come and meet me and do the camping thing. And then I usually piggyback it on one of these expos that I’m going to. So if I’m going to Oregon or going to southern, you know, Northern California, something like that, I can I can do the work trip, then take the family out on the coast and then come back. 00:56:36 Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great system, I think. Yeah. You basically, you know, not everybody can take tons of time off. So being able to fly. That makes perfect sense. So. So cool. Well I think I think this is this has been a good start. We’re going to be talking to you more Matt as we go. But I think I wanted to just get a high level of, you know, kind of getting people ready for this because I feel like, again, there’s a lot of questions. I have them we’ve answered a few of them today. So, um, so we’ll send everybody out to AVC. Com if they have questions. They got your YouTube channel like you mentioned. You got the shows coming up and everything and, um, yeah, man, I appreciate the time and excited to dig more into this as we go. 00:57:12 Matt: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yeah, this is, uh, it’s been fun. I look forward to hearing from some people. Yeah. And if you have questions, we’re more than happy to help you out and get you steered, uh, steered right on your journey. All right, before. 00:57:22 Dave: We head out here, I just want to give a huge thanks to Matt for breaking down, uh, the camper build out. Uh, if you want to get access, just go to AVC comm check in with Matt. And I know they got some good stuff. We didn’t dig into everything they have going. Just wanted to give you a flavor of that. But definitely, if you’re in the van world, uh, check in with Matt and let him know you heard this podcast. Also want to let you know, uh, we’ve got a fly fishing boot camp coming up. If you’re interested, go to Web Fly. That’s boot camp. And, uh, and you can find out who is going to be there leading the boot camp this year. We got a bunch of great speakers. This is the first time this has been going, so we’re excited to share this out. And, uh, check in there and you can find out who’s speaking. And you can save your spot for the fly fishing boot camp. Also want to let you know we have a Montana Fly Fishing trip giveaway going on right now. If you want to get that access to Fishing Spring creeks in Montana with me and the crew, uh, just go to Wet Fly Giveaway if you want to enter to win and then check in with me by email. Dave. Com and I’ll let you know of what we have on availability. We should still have some spots available for the Montana fly fishing trip with the focus on spring creeks. All right, that’s all I have for you. I hope you enjoyed this one. Uh, looking forward to catching you on the next one. I hope you have a great evening. Hope you have a great morning or afternoon wherever you are in the world. And, uh, I want to thank you again for stopping by. We’ll talk to you soon. 00:58:42 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly com.